BC Free Calling Area

[wanderer]

Looking at the complete list of NXX's (http://www.dellvoice.ca/completeList?country=CANADA), I noticed that some of Kelowna NXX's are NOT in the free calling area.

For example, some 1250760, 762, and 763 say $- but 761, 764, etc. say $0.02. If this list correct? (Going back to the days when people used a mnemonic to identify an exchange/location using the first 2 digits, shouldn't all NXXs with the same first 2 digits be the same exchange ... and hence all 76X be free?)

[FONGO_steve]

I'll take this back to the team for repair - if we say a city is included then all NPA-NXX within that city should be $0. We wouldn't include only part of a city

[TheHardy]

Looking at the complete list of NXX's (http://www.dellvoice.ca/completeList?country=CANADA), I noticed that some of Kelowna NXX's are NOT in the free calling area.

For example, some 1250760, 762, and 763 say $- but 761, 764, etc. say $0.02. If this list correct? (Going back to the days when people used a mnemonic to identify an exchange/location using the first 2 digits, shouldn't all NXXs with the same first 2 digits be the same exchange ... and hence all 76X be free?)

Unfortunately, the OLD sayd of the mnemonics are well and truly gone. Not many exchanges followed this TO THE LETTER with all of NPA-NXY (ie: 0-9 as the Y digit) being in the SAME exchange.

For the examples you list, this is especially true ...

250 760 (TELUS) Wellington
250 761 (TELUS) Zeballos
250 762 (TELUS) Kelowna
250 763 (TELUS) Kelowna
250 764 (TELUS) Okanagan Mission
250 765 (TELUS) Rutland
250 766 (TELUS) Winfield
250 767 (TELUS) Peachland
250 768 (TELUS) Westbank
250 769 (TELUS) Lakeview Heights

[TheHardy]

I'll take this back to the team for repair - if we say a city is included then all NPA-NXX within that city should be $0. We wouldn't include only part of a city

Well Steve, there are quite a few examples where the above does not hold completely true, even after the mass-tariff update and the new automated procedure. Without belabouring the point, I think that the process needs to be revisted.

That being said, there are also some "unofficial" cities that are FREE-rated at this moment that DO NOT appear in the list of free calling cities on the new updated DV/Fongo sites (not to mention the poorly outdated FPL site, to which the much-promised update has NEVER been applied); I can PM you these cities directly if you wish, and allow Fongo/DV/FPL to decide whether they are really honestly FREE or (again) mistakenly tariff'ed .... if they are REALLY free, then it would probably be good to include them on the two websites (THREE, really!) for increased visibility and to draw more customers, etc.

All that being said, do we have any update on the clarification on the FREE CALLING CITY LCA's?? Or is this pending additional DID's becoming available?

I am aware that the old pre-FONGO-launch interpretation was that "selected cities have free calling" and it may not include the ENTIRE traditional wireline LCA of that city (or metropolitan area) .... just wondering what the stand is on this.

EG: Victoria, BC (proper) is FREE, but the outlying areas of Saanich & Sooke are NOT ... they are, however, part of the LCA of Victoria (and are actually within the city limits in most cases, just have different rate-centre names assigned).

Thanks again for any clarification, or for passing this along to the proper channels to be dealt with!

[wanderer]

Unfortunately, the OLD sayd of the mnemonics are well and truly gone. Not many exchanges followed this TO THE LETTER with all of NPA-NXY (ie: 0-9 as the Y digit) being in the SAME exchange.
For the examples you list, this is especially true ...

I agree that location can no longer be guaranteed by NXX since one can usually keep the same phone number when moving across town... but two numbers with the same NX should still be in the same EAS, no? I don't know the region very well, but most of the NXX's on your list appear to be remotes off of Kelowna (even though they have different rate centres)... hence my initial query.

[TheHardy]

I agree that location can no longer be guaranteed by NXX since one can usually keep the same phone number when moving across town... but two numbers with the same NX should still be in the same EAS, no? I don't know the region very well, but most of the NXX's on your list appear to be remotes off of Kelowna (even though they have different rate centres)... hence my initial query.

Porting numbers between actual EXCHANGES (RateCentres in this case) is available in larger METRO areas ... for example in Metro Vancouver, you could have a WHALLEY (really in SURREY) number, but move to an area of VANCOUVER (say in the HEMLOCK exchange) and keep your old WHALLEY number. This is because the calling area for all of Metro Vancouver is IDENTICAL -- that is one of the per-requisites for ratecentre-to-ratecentre porting of numbers (even within the same carrier).

As for all NX_y_'s being in the same general geographic area, this IS NOT the case. In larger population areas, such as Vancouver, it is true that all (or almost all) of the ORIGINALLY assigned numbers were in similar areas ...

604-25x
604-26x
604-27x
604-29x
604-32x
604-43x
604-52x
604-58x
604-59x
604-66x
604-68x
604-73x

I can help you out with any questions you may have about BC in specific ...

Going back to your 250-76x (Kelowna) ...
250 760 (TELUS) Wellington --- Vancouver Island, near Nanaimo
250 761 (TELUS) Zeballos --- way NORTH Vancouver Island
250 762 (TELUS) Kelowna
250 763 (TELUS) Kelowna
250 764 (TELUS) Okanagan Mission --- near Kelowna...
250 765 (TELUS) Rutland --- near Kelowna
250 766 (TELUS) Winfield --- near Kelowna
250 767 (TELUS) Peachland --- sorta near Kelowna, but a bit further, still a local call
250 768 (TELUS) Westbank --- near Kelowna
250 769 (TELUS) Lakeview Heights --- near Kelowna

Hope that clears her up!

[wanderer]

Going back to your 250-76x (Kelowna) ...
250 764 (TELUS) Okanagan Mission --- near Kelowna...
250 765 (TELUS) Rutland --- near Kelowna
250 766 (TELUS) Winfield --- near Kelowna
250 767 (TELUS) Peachland --- sorta near Kelowna, but a bit further, still a local call
250 768 (TELUS) Westbank --- near Kelowna
250 769 (TELUS) Lakeview Heights --- near Kelowna

A number of the "near Kelowna" locations you mention are within 10kms from the City Hall but the Fongo rate tool(s) only show $0.00 for the Kelowna-PROPER exchanges 762 and 763.

What tool are you using to determine if they're officially in the same EAS? The CNAC site doesn't help me because the fact that two numbers are in different rate centres isn't enough information to determine if it's a local call: 1604495, 6 etc are in the Whalley rate centre but obviously it's in the same EAS as Vancouver. And there are rate centres which are asymmetrical where A to B is free but not the reverse.

[TheHardy]

A number of the "near Kelowna" locations you mention are within 10kms from the City Hall but the Fongo rate tool(s) only show $0.00 for the Kelowna-PROPER exchanges 762 and 763.

What tool are you using to determine if they're officially in the same EAS? The CNAC site doesn't help me because the fact that two numbers are in different rate centres isn't enough information to determine if it's a local call: 1604495, 6 etc are in the Whalley rate centre but obviously it's in the same EAS as Vancouver. And there are rate centres which are asymmetrical where A to B is free but not the reverse.

Welcome to the forums and the land of special interests! Glad to have someone that I can talk a bit of shop with!

At this time, outside the CORE areas where Fongo actually has assigned numbers (DIDs), their FREE calling is quite SPOTTY at best; it seems that for whatever reason (I have asked and not yet gotten anything other than "cause we said so!") that outside of 'DID-ed' areas, only certain specific RATECENTRES are free.

Contrast this to where Fongo has DIDs where the ENTIRE LCA (Local Calling Area) of that DID is included -- hence VANCOUVER (and correspondingly Richmond, New Westminster, North Vancouver, West Vancouver - all of which serve the same LCA) can call to anywhere in Metro Vancouver from WEST VANCOUVER to ALDERGROVE/WHONNOCK (see some of my posts in a separate thread for the entire list of ratecentres).

The "OTHER" FREE calling cities, as you point out, include only what Fongo has chosen to include ... and sometimes it makes not rhyme or reason. There has been much discussion (again, other threads) about the LCA of HALIFAX and WINNIPEG where the FREE zone around the "proper" core is a hodge-podge at best, where SOME (and only SOME!) 'attached' ratecentres are included and others are not -- there is no bearing on actual DISTANCE, just actual ratecentre name! As weird as this is, the explanation is "that it is what it is" and no further reason has been given.

You are correct about Kelowna ... almost all of the non-Vancouver BC cities that have coverage are omitting MOST of the LCA of that city -- Victoria does not include Saanich nor Sooke, Nanaimo does not include Cedar, Wellington nor others, Courtenay does not include Union Bay, Comox etc. Squamish DOES include Britannia Beach, and Hope does include Boston Bar ... so some are right.

For the most part, I guess we get what we get ... I would LOVE to get a definitive answer ... or at least have someone from Rates and Routing pop in here to help address these issues!

The tool that you will want to use, and it is referenced in many of my other posts, will be www.localcallingguide.com

It has the data to sort out TO/FROM calling patterns and is a very useful research tool in this field.

Let me know how else I can be of assistance, and if it is more SPECIFIC in nature than forum-ish, feel free to PM or email me also!

[wanderer]

Glad to have someone that I can talk a bit of shop with! ...
The tool that you will want to use, and it is referenced in many of my other posts, will be http://www.localcallingguide.com

Haha... you prob got the wrong guy to talk shop. I know just enough to be dangerous. And I only show up here when I find a problem...as can seen by only a handful of posts in 2 years.

The site you listed showed that it is a local call from 762 to

250 764 (TELUS) Okanagan Mission --- near Kelowna...
250 765 (TELUS) Rutland --- near Kelowna
250 768 (TELUS) Westbank --- near Kelowna
250 769 (TELUS) Lakeview Heights --- near Kelowna

Even though the site did caution "Local calling information is valid for incumbent carriers only unless otherwise stated," these exchanges are basically the districts on the outskirts of Kelowna. (They are 10kms from city centre and has Kelowna as the mailing address.)

I suspect the problem (with the above and with the surrounds of Victoria) is that it was simply easier for CLECs like Fongo to simply go by rate centres instead of looking at geography (or a realtor map) and then getting a clarification from the ILEC.... They're bound to get complaints especially from Kelowna users who can't call someone 5 minutes away from city centre.

[TheHardy]

Haha... you prob got the wrong guy to talk shop. I know just enough to be dangerous. And I only show up here when I find a problem...as can seen by only a handful of posts in 2 years.

A kindred spirit to be sure then!! Describes me pretty well, but once I have an interest in something I dig on and pursue it til I have satiated my quest for knowledge. Hence I am a self-learned telephony wanna-be-quasi-expert!

The site you listed showed that it is a local call from 762 to

250 764 (TELUS) Okanagan Mission --- near Kelowna...
250 765 (TELUS) Rutland --- near Kelowna
250 768 (TELUS) Westbank --- near Kelowna
250 769 (TELUS) Lakeview Heights --- near Kelowna

Even though the site did caution "Local calling information is valid for incumbent carriers only unless otherwise stated," these exchanges are basically the districts on the outskirts of Kelowna. (They are 10kms from city centre and has Kelowna as the mailing address.)

I suspect the problem (with the above and with the surrounds of Victoria) is that it was simply easier for CLECs like Fongo to simply go by rate centres instead of looking at geography (or a realtor map) and then getting a clarification from the ILEC.... They're bound to get complaints especially from Kelowna users who can't call someone 5 minutes away from city centre.

List correct -- assumption mainly correct. As Fongo (and really FIBERNETICS, who is the CLEC that Fongo gets their service from) does not provide LOCAL numbers in those areas, where they choose to offer free calling TO is solely at their discretion! When you are not paying anything for your calls, it is pretty hard to bitch and whine!

That said, I _am_ actively trying to get an answer ... for the most part, wherever DIDs are offered, they follow traditional wireline (ILEC) local calling areas (this was verified by KRIS in an old old post). As I stated tho, outside their DID area, it is hit and miss.

There is nothing that I would like more as to get a clarification as to the WHY of it, and I have pestered poor Steve relentlessly on this ... to no avail yet, as it is not his baby to deal with (although he does do his very best to get us all kinds of answers!) -- MY ideal solution would be to get someone directly from Rates and Routing to show up here and answer this line of questioning!

I have even offered in the past, that OUTSIDE of localcallingguide (which is UNofficial, but I have found it 99.5% accurate in the regions of Canada for which I have direct knowledge!!!), I would be willing to do the research and verify what is and isn't an LCA for a supported area.

(Steve, in case you missed it before, I am offering again ... right here, right now ... just lemme know!)

To me, IMHO, it seems more of a marketting issue "Hey, we need to support calling to CITY" and R&R (rates/routing) then gets JUST that city running to meet the marketting call ... without doing any checking ... again, IMHO (can't stress that enough). AFAIK, in areas outside where Fibernetics has DID's, they are paying someone else to TERMINATE those calls, so theoretically THAT could be an issue too, dependant on how and who the terminating carrier is -- THEIR supported LCA may be the issue ... but that is all proprietary info guarded at the highest levels, and really doesn't concern me -- so long as someone from Fibernetics/Fongo R&R would say WHY and HOW -- the end details don't matter for this case.

But you are correct ... and again AFAIK, there are NO carriers in Canada that DON'T follow ILEC LCA's --- mobile/wireless providers are another matter, as they often offer a larger LCA (then again, Rogers/Fido has lately been chopping theirs BACK...) but not less than the wireline ILEC LCA.

To my logic (and it seems YOURS), I cannot decipher the difference between an outgoing call routed to KELOWNA or to WESTBANK, as even if it is a termination issue, it is still terminating thru the same tandem/trunk to get there, and there should be no costing difference! Then again, gone are the "old copper wire stretching for miles and miles" days and it is mostly quite digital now --- why is there even ANY North-America wide LD whatsoever, regardless of telephony platform?? How can US-based mobile providers offer nationwide longdistance included .... to that matter, how is it standard on most landline NON-ILEC plans?? Does it really cost more to transport a long distance call than a local call (except remote regions....)??? Or is it just a really large cash-grab that no one wants to give up on????