My analysis of one-way audio issues

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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Mango » 04/10/2015

Jake wrote:With regards to the voip3 server. A few years ago their servers were fairly lax in how they operated. This lead to a horrible service that pretty much ground to a halt. There were so many poorly configured ATAs out there (mainly because of other problems) that they were bringing the main servers down.


I think you're confusing two unrelated problems.

As you know, FPL demands a 3600 second registration, and bans users who register too frequently. Registration is expensive - and in fact, registration was how the massive DDoS against Callcentric was perpetrated a few years ago. So, by enforcing long registration times, FPL reduces the load on their servers greatly. Trivia: Callcentric operates a dozen(s?) of SBCs. Now, I have no idea what the customer base of Callcentric is vs FPL, but one possible reason that they have so many SBCs is they use a short registration interval (60 seconds) instead of NAT Keep Alive.

This however has nothing to do with the current one-way audio issues. Obviously, two-way audio is, by definition, an integral part of a phone call. Two-way audio would not cause service to degrade, in fact, the server load would be identical. The media gateway is still sending the audio, it's just not sending the audio to the ATA.

Here is what is happening when a FPL user experiences one-way audio:

ATA: "I would like to make a call please!"
FPL: "Super! Where shall we send audio?"
ATA: "Please send it to my IP address, 192.168.0.3!"

As you can imagine, this doesn't work. Although the ATA's IP address may be 192.168.0.3, this is a non-routable, internal address. When FPL tries to send audio to any 192.168 IP, you will not receive it. What should be happening (and what happens with voip3) is this:

FPL: "No can do. But I see that this SIP packet arrived from 24.115.60.78. I will send the audio there instead!"

There is a workaround for Linksys and OBi ATAs that allows them to discover their public IP address via registration. However, not all ATAs, (most notably Grandstream) support this feature. This is why we continue to see reports of one-way audio in the forums.

This is a problem that can, and should, be permanently solved. Solving this problem would REDUCE the ticket load on FPL staff, not increase it.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Liptonbrisk » 04/10/2015

Jake wrote:
Code: Select all
Yes, I too find it perplexing that all the FPL servers aren't configured in the same manner as voip3.freephoneline.ca. Doing so would help resolve a lot of one-way audio headaches for Freephoneline newcomers.


To help you try and be a little less perplexed. If they set the other servers up the same as this server is, I am willing to bet the service would degrade to the point where it was 2 or 3 years ago.


With all due respect, this simply isn't the case. The major VoIP providers all (out of consideration and respect for FPL, I'm not going to list them), indeed, "have their servers configured so that if the IP address in the Media description is a private, non routable IP, RTP traffic is sent to the public IP address used for the SIP communication." This point is not being addressed, for whatever reason.

The registration interval being changed to an hour makes a difference with respect to what you're describing. But not RTP traffic.

Support would be inundated with hundreds of tickets and would swamped to the point of not being able to help anyone.


Support would actually be dealing with less tickets related to one-way audio.

Most importantly, we would not be able to make phone calls


How so? In fact, many more people would be able to make proper two-way audio phone calls. Currently, many newcomers have issues making proper phone calls as it is without workarounds.

because the servers would be down all the time. Don't you think that even my 5 year old could see that if this server is working better than the others, then the answer would be to make the other servers the same?


FPL's server reliability and uptime have improved significantly since I initially paid for my unlock key. And that's great! Kudos to FPL for that! I completely appreciate and respect that. However, that has nothing to do with RTP traffic never reaching the customers' ATAs, nor the fact that all major VoIP providers have their servers configured "so that if the IP address in the Media description is a private, non routable IP, RTP traffic is sent to the public IP address used for the SIP communication." And since that isn't the case for voip.freephoneline.ca and voip2.freephoneline.ca, many newcomers are having issues with one way audio and must use workarounds, which they would, otherwise, not have to do. Some people posting in these forums work in the VoIP industry; some of them do know what they're talking about.

That server is more than likely is not set up the same as others, and is probably there for testing and fault finding reasons.


Again, no one is really addressing why voip3.freephoneline.ca is handling RTP traffic as per the industry standard, while voip.freephoneline.ca and voip2.freephoneline.ca do not.
This has nothing to do with server up-time, reliability or server congestion.

FPL are will to help with that if people are having troubles, but now they require people to pay for the help. Personally I don't like this part, especially when I first got here you could pick up a phone and get a very helpful support agent to get things going. It has changed a lot since then, but hey, I paid $50 for my phone line over 5 years ago and not a penny since; so can I really complain?


I like FPL, and I think FPL is a great service. I think it's great that FPL still responds to tickets even though it doesn't have to. That said, as someone who sends a lot of business FPL's way and sets up FPL for new customers, I know for a fact that if RTP traffic were being handled/negotiated normally, less people would be having one-way audio issues. There would be less tickets related to one-way audio.

People wouldn't need to be told that they need to have public addresses enabled in Via requests. People wouldn't need to port forward RTP ports to their ATA when everything else fails. They don't have to do this with other VoIP providers. How do I know? I also test other services on their equipment when I set up FPL with them.

Regardless of how much I don't agree with a lot of changes that have happened here over the years, I will say the service is a lot more stable than it was.


Sure, and that's great, but it has nothing to do with the one-way audio issue many newcomers are experiencing.

Support has actually been very fair and helped customers for free when their bosses have told them that they have to charge those customers.


I agree. I think that's commendable. But there can be even less tickets support would have to deal with.

I want to make it clear that I am not complaining so much as I am making a suggestion for improvement (I am trying to help): voip.freephoneline.ca and voip2.freephoneline.ca, in the manner these servers are configured to deal with RTP traffic, are not configured as per the industry standard, and doing so, would help both its customers and its support staff (since they would have to deal with less tickets). Discussing non-related things about server reliability has nothing to do with this issue concerning how RTP traffic should be handled.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby ckkatan » 04/10/2015

Hi Jake,

Thank you for taking the time to explain to us the "story" behind the scene. Your posting cleared lots of my misunderstandings / questions.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Mango » 04/10/2015

Once again, two-way audio would not cause degradation of service. It takes the same amount of resources to send audio nowhere as it does to send audio to your ATA.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Liptonbrisk » 04/10/2015

Mango wrote:Once again, two-way audio would not cause degradation of service. It takes the same amount of resources to send audio nowhere as it does to send audio to your ATA.


Exactly
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Funkytown » 04/10/2015

I started off with only 1 ata grandstream device and now i have 3 working all behind the modem after 7 years with (3 #'s) 1-Clearpointel. 2-Freephoneline :o

I have 10 different family members that all have a Grandstream device (xmas gifts) over the years and they are all with different ISP providers.
2 way audio is working flawlessly for each family member including myself, except i think a few times over the past years there were lite issues that arised due to change of providers but all this gets solved quickly when selecting UPNP over KEEP ALIVE.
7 years and all 13 Grandstream devices all continue to work flawlessly.

Thank You .............!!! Freephoneline, FONGO, Clearpointel
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Mango » 04/10/2015

Yes, the issue does not affect all users.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Funkytown » 04/10/2015

Mango wrote:However, not all ATAs, (most notably Grandstream) support this feature.


have you tried UPNP instead of keep alive?

Mango wrote:Yes, the issue does not affect all users.


(going by your profile post-bit info) Your with Telus?
2 close family members are also with TELUS in the west and selecting UPNP instead of keep alive worked perfectly for them for "2 way audio".
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Mango » 04/10/2015

This problem is caused by a configuration issue with FPL equipment. Any configuration on the user side that seems to work is a workaround and not a real solution.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Funkytown » 04/10/2015

Mango wrote:No I have not.


Perhaps try using upnp instead of keep alive concerning the grand stream devices.


Mango wrote:When UPNP is used, does the router allow incoming traffic only from the service provider or does it allow it from any source?


It is a solution that i have used allot to solve common voip issues, usually when there are issues and problems VOIP related something always ends up to be normally firewall settings that are related in modems and routers. However, what I like is to make things simple so by using UPNP then everything seems to be fine, no worries about port forwarding and solves 100% of voip related issues.


Mango wrote:I do use Telus. However, the ISP is not relevant to this problem.


I personally still suspect even after ISP's have been told not to throttle Canadian internet connections which i think ISP's are still anonymously doing it. [Google]
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Liptonbrisk » 04/10/2015

Funkytown wrote:
Mango wrote:No I have not.


Perhaps try using upnp instead of keep alive concerning the grand stream devices.


UPnP can present its own security risks in routers. Regardless, this is still a workaround. It's not as though it's always mandatory to enable UPnP when using Grandstreams with
major VoIP service providers.

I don't believe anyone in here is saying FPL doesn't offer great value for what you pay (I like FPL). Rather, I believe a constructive suggestion is being made to make voip.freephoneline.ca and voip2.freephoneline.ca
handle RTP traffic negotiation in the same manner the rest of the industry does (similar to what voip3.freephoneline.ca does properly) in order to help reduce problems for newcomers and reduce work for support staff.
I am not having any issues with FPL, and I know what to do to help people work around this RTP issue on voip.freephoneline.ca and voip2.freephoneline.ca. Unfortunately, not everyone does.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Mango » 04/10/2015

Fongo staff - we know you're watching this thread.

Opening a ticket with your systems administrator to investigate this problem has many advantages:

1) New users will file fewer tickets.
2) We will go away and stop bothering you.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Funkytown » 04/10/2015

UPNP works fine for me and others that are in my family across Canada wtih different Internet Providers . Though I have seen another method where people say that enabling the Modem or Router "SIP ALG" solves many sip issues.

In other words these mentioned methods by-pass the modems/routers NAT firewall control settings making sure that it communicates within our lan and the FPL sip server.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Liptonbrisk » 04/10/2015

Funkytown wrote:UPNP works fine for me and others that are in my family across Canada wtih different Internet Providers.


I don't deny that it doesn't work fine for you. That doesn't change the fact that UPnP can present security risks:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=google+u ... urity+risk

Moreover, UPnP is not required with any Grandstream ATA I've configured with the biggest VoIP (ITSP) service providers in North America.
So, the question should be why do you need to enable UPnP when using FPL's SIP servers when its not mandatory to do so when using major ITSPs?
Well, the answer has already been provided: the major VoIP providers all (out of consideration and respect for FPL, I'm not going to list them), indeed,
"have their servers configured so that if the IP address in the Media description is a private, non routable IP (LAN), RTP traffic is sent to the public IP address (WAN) used for the SIP communication."
That is how voip3.freephoneline.ca functions (properly, as per the industry standard).

Though I have seen another method where people say that enabling the Modem or Router "SIP ALG" solves many sip issues.


Typically, SIP ALG is enabled by default in a lot of routers, and if an issue arises, needs to be disabled. Some good ATAs, notably, the OBi200 series,
have a feature that attempts to detect upstream SIP ALG (and work around it): X_DetectALG

SIP ALG is not implemented properly in a lot of home routers and may need to be disabled, depending on the router: http://www.obihai.com/faq/sip-alg/calling-out

In some router/modem combos, SIP ALG is enabled and can't be turned off easily, which is one reason why it helps that voip4.freephoneline.ca exists.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Funkytown » 04/11/2015

Can I ask you guys what kind of routers are you using behind your modems that's causing these issues?

I have tested both the Huawei and SmartRG modems and i can confirm (without any routers) the Grandstream and a few other sip devices I own have no issues connecting with
Code: Select all
Voip.freephoneline.ca


In the past I do know some people who owned certain NETGEAR versions or low budget routers in which that caused them several problems, until they realized it, they decided to swap to something higher quality name brand router then theses sip and wireless issues vanished.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Liptonbrisk » 04/11/2015

Funkytown wrote:Can I ask you guys what kind of routers are you using behind your modems that's causing these issues?


To reiterate, I am not, personally, having any issues with one way audio with any ATA.
It appears that you "somewhat" did at one point (as have others): viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15120
Rather, the question should be, do you need to enable UPnP to get FPL working for you?
Then, why don't people always have to with other ITSPs? Again, if FPL's SIP servers were configured, as per the industry standard, so that in the event the IP address in the media description is a private, non-routable IP (LAN), RTP traffic is sent to the public IP address (WAN) used for the SIP communication (which is how voip3.freephoneline.ca is properly configured), one-way audio issues would be reduced without the need to send tickets to customer support. I'm not saying that necessarily applied to your specific situation, but I am saying, in general, one way audio issues would become less of an issue.

In the past I do know some people who owned certain NETGEAR versions or low budget routers in which that caused them several problems


It's very easy to start pointing fingers at people's hardware (sure, there are some old D-Link routers, with specific hardware revisions, and at least one SMC router), but that doesn't change the fact that RTP traffic should be handled in the manner as described above. People would be less likely to experience RTP audio issues with a SIP server that is configured to handle RTP the same way voip3.freephoneline.ca does, which is, by the way, the industry standard; and it's that way for the reason being repeated in this thread.

There are, as you've noted, lots of ways to work around this RTP problem with ATA and router settings, including using UPnP, but doing so is not always ideal (security risks as noted before) nor necessary (voip3.freephoneline.ca wouldn't require the use of UPnP nearly as often). The VoIP industry handles RTP the same way voip3.freephoneline.ca does.

Pointing this problem out doesn't imply that FPL is a bad service. I sincerely do like FPL. It's just pointing out that an adjustment could be made that would help correct this issue.
Anyway, I suppose I could take the position of "why should I care? As long as I'm not having problems, who cares if others are? Why bother posting?" And, on that note, I wish you a great weekend!
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Mango » 04/11/2015

Funkytown wrote:Can I ask you guys what kind of routers are you using behind your modems that's causing these issues?


This one-way-audio problem is not caused by routers. It's caused by a misconfiguration of three of FPL's switches.

Once again.

This one-way-audio problem is not - IS NOT - caused by routers. Or ATAs. Or any user-equipment. It's a problem with the service that affects a small subset of users.

I am unsure how to state this any more clearly.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Funkytown » 04/11/2015

Liptonbrisk wrote:It appears that you "somewhat" did at one point (as have others): viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15120


In details yes (i have had few minor issues over several years) and my second comment in that exact thread your pointing out, it was fixed quickly as it was NOT FPL issue but my end with my firewall and NAT blocking the ports. :D

Liptonbrisk wrote:Rather, the question should be, do you need to enable UPnP to get FPL working for you?!


UPNP simply works well for me and other family members across Canada using different ISP's that own the grandstream devices that i sent them personally. Considering that i didnt have to forward ports over team-viewer and it worked just fine for my family, it really did save me a whole lot of time from having to config Nat/Firewall/port forwarding . ;)


***************************************************


Topic of this thread ..... [one way audio issue] ?

Quote taken from url below
One-way audio is a common VOIP problem.
[Google]
Code: Select all
http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/One-way+Audio
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Liptonbrisk » 04/11/2015

Funkytown wrote:, it was fixed quickly as it was NOT FPL issue but my end with my firewall and NAT blocking the ports.


Your NAT firewall doesn't cause issues for me when your router (I've only tested Rev. B) is updated to the latest firmware. All I have to do is disable SIP ALG in your router with SIP servers that negotiate RTP traffic as per industry standards.

UPNP simply works well for me and other family members across Canada using different ISP's that own the grandstream devices that i sent them personally. Considering that i didnt have to forward ports


UPnP is basically doing that for you when required, and you could very well be creating security issues for your family members. The point being that it shouldn't have to be enabled at all for VoIP, nor should port forwarding.

http://www.rapid7.com/resources/free-se ... n-2013.jsp (might want to run a scan; not all routers and devices are exploitable, but a lot out there still are with UPnP enabled)

http://securitygladiators.com/2014/10/1 ... s-attacks/
http://lifehacker.com/5980126/5-securit ... nerable-to

I don't have to enable UPnP to use your router (if it's Rev. B) with properly configured SIP servers that negotiate RTP traffic properly.
All I have to do is disable SIP ALG in your router.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Funkytown » 04/11/2015

Oh your referring to my postbit info ?
Router: DLINK DIR-601 rev B1 ?

No actually i dont have this router anymore.

Thanks i will delete it out of my profile shortly.
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Re: My analysis of one-way audio issues

Postby Liptonbrisk » 04/11/2015

Funkytown wrote:Router: DLINK DIR-601 rev B1 ?


There's also a Rev. A of that router, but I've never had to set that up for someone.
http://support.dlink.ca/FAQView.aspx?f= ... WoVw%3D%3D

I did have to help someone with Rev. B awhile ago with a different VoIP service. No port forwarding or UPnP was required.
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