$1.95 + tax per month (or $23.40 + tax annually) 911 fee for VoIP unlock key users starting October 1, 2024

[LoDown]

Lets all complain to the CRTC here: https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/contact/question.htm#home-phone

Complaint: Mandatory 911 for VOIP phones is nonsense when so few 911 calls come in via VOIP phones as compared to Cell phones. Also, since VOIP phones can be moved around, 911 does not know where to send help when needed unless informed - and this is fraught with the possibility for erroneous information being passed on to 911 during a real emergency.

END Mandatory 911 on VOIP NOW!

[fguser100]

Please read this regarding 911 mandatory

https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/phone/911/
https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/phone/911/voip.htm

I understand that no one is happy.

Do some research about other VOIP providers and then do the math.

Here is what aveno says about 911 : https://www.anveo.com/faq.asp?code=faq_e911

[Erft]

I'm repeating here because no-one seems to have seen my comment:

In the Terms and conditions of the contract/subscription, Freephoneline/Fongo reserved the right to change or add fees to Freephoneline in the future. In the event that they chose to do that, they said they would give customers a 30-day heads up. It's in the T&C "8. Information and Payment", paragraph g.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130328162 ... e.ca/terms

[emailit]

"Post by Liptonbrisk » 07/24/2024
mikoul wrote: ↑07/24/2024
The process seem pretty fast and FPL have no choice to cooperate because the CCTS is under the umbrella of the CRTC.
Are you not considering the possibility that Fongo could close Freephoneline completely if pressured enough?"

I agree with you Liptonbrisk. The closing down of FPL due to it no longer being financially viable could be a possibility. We would all have to move to another service if that happened!

[Liptonbrisk]

I'm repeating here because no-one seems to have seen my comment:

I saw it, but I am under the impression that provincial consumer protection acts may still apply regardless of whatever terms a company creates, if advertising is deemed misleading (or if something else applies). Please note that I'm not advocating that you pursue anything, and I don't know what the outcome would be if you chose to do so.

[Liptonbrisk]

I agree with you Liptonbrisk. The closing down of FPL due to it no longer being financially viable could be a possibility. We would all have to move to another service if that happened!

I was asking an honest question. I don't know the answer, so I'm not sure that there's anything to agree with.

[oleas]

How can we fight this?

This is the escalation process: https://support.fongo.com/hc/articles/2 ... -complaint.

You should at least contact Fongo first to see what they say: https://support.fongo.com/hc/en-us/requ ... urce=email.

If you wish to file a CCTS complaint, you can visit https://www.ccts-cprst.ca/for-consumers ... aint-form/.

Thanks, I just sent a complaint to Fongo. Let's see what they reply.

[Liptonbrisk]

For the record, I'm not advocating that anyone file complaints. The choice is up to the user.

Sigh.

I am really not pleased about conversations I have to conduct with two senior households today.

[Erft]

Liptonbrisk wrote: ↑
I saw it, but I am under the impression that provincial consumer protection acts may still apply regardless of whatever terms a company creates, if advertising is deemed misleading (or if something else applies).

Still, I've seen numerous applications fail simply because you're supposed to read any contract thoroughly, including teeny tiny clauses in the T&Cs, before agreeing to anything.

Are you not considering the possibility that Fongo could close Freephoneline completely if pressured enough?"

Absolutely; I considered it. And I think it's a good possibility. A lot of companies are either closing down, or closing down unprofitable divisions. I can see how Freephoneline might not only be unprofitable, but a drain on Fongo. So Freephoneline ending service is a good possibility if they can't at least cover costs, in my opinion. Frankly, I'd rather pay the $1.95/month (with or without tax) than see that happen.

[Jake]

I am really not pleased about conversations I have to conduct with two senior households today.

No good deed goes unpunished, sadly.

[gpw]

How can we fight this?

How about a class action law suite. The unlock code was advertised as a one time payment.

[Must]

Can we just opt out of 911 then?
However if voip.ms is offering a DID for $0.85 that would be the way to go I think as they have real support that has been responsive and it is less trouble to configure a connection with Asterisk.

[Erft]

How about a class action law suite. The unlock code was advertised as a one time payment.

The unlock code still is a one-time payment.

Can we just opt out of 911 then?

They'll cancel your service if you do that. They're required to ensure they provide 911 access to all their customers.

[zombie999]

They'll cancel your service if you do that. They're required to ensure they provide 911 access to all their customers.

I have 3 lines. I don't think I should be paying 911 fee 3 times as there is no way I will be calling 911 for all 3 lines simultaneously ever, no?

[zombie999]

Bulkvs might be another option. I haven't looked into it too much, but it appears their DID is $0.25 with $0.002 per minute. They charge a $5 port fee (vs. voip.ms no-charge).

E911 with bulk is $0.49. Not sure if it's optional.

E911 with Bulkvs IS optional. You can activate it for one line, two lines, etc. or none. I have 3 DID with Bulkvs and no E911. They do have an 911 overage fees which might apply if you call 911 too much. They can tell you what is the threshold depending how many DIDs you have.

For 1.95+tax, you get 680 minutes of calling + DID with Bulkvs. Also if you make toll free calls, they pay you.

[zombie999]

Rogers charges me $0.75/m for 911 services on my prepaid cell plan. Why does FPL want 2.5 times what greedy Rogers charges?

Edit: Freephoneline is using Northern 911 and pulling information from a database, which needs to be verified by the caller. This process is similar to what other SIP service providers are forced to use. The method is different.

https://www.northern911.com/

Rogers routes your 911 call to local PSAP (BETTER) while Freephonline sends it to a private call center (WORSE).

And Rogers charges less. So what's your point?

[zombie999]

I'm not taking FPL side . I just don't think FPL make a penny out of 1.95$ + tx ( it's about 2.24$ ) for 911.

- Aveno charges 1.50$ US + tx for 911 - and it's mandatory. ( 1.50$ US + tx is about 2.35$ CDN depending on which province you're in and exchange rate )
- Oama charges 2.35$ CDN for 911 ( not sure if tax is included - it's mandatory )
- Voip.ms charges 1.50$ US + tx for 911 ( it's optional for now )

It's not a good news for us, but this is a reality, all voip providers charge for 911.

Anveo direct & Bulkvs do NOT require you to have E911. It's optional. Same with Callcentric (just state you use it outside USA&Canada).

FPL makes 99% profit of $1.95 fee if few people call 911. If everyone makes one 911 call per month, then they might lose some. Also if Bulkvs can offer it for $0.49, then FPL is definitely making a profit.

Also if this is a tax, it should not be taxed again.

If they had $35 per call fee but they didn't charge it, it's their own fault. People who call 911 should pay, not us who never called.

[Khyron]

From what I understood 911 service has never been available in QC,NB,NFLD, and PEI.. Will the 911 service now start to work in these provinces since the monthly charges for the 911 service will be taken from people in these provinces?


https://www.fongo.com/about-fongo/legal/terms/
https://www.freephoneline.ca/911

Availability: 911 Emergency calling service is unavailable for use with Fongo Mobile, Fongo Works and FreePhoneLine services in the provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Prince Edward Island.

[Liptonbrisk]

So what's your point?

SIP service providers need to use a different method of reaching PSAP. SIP service providers typically use Northern 911 and pay it in order to provide 911 service.

If billing structures aren't the same for both VoIP service providers and mobility service providers for 911 access, then all anyone is doing is confusing pricing by assuming they are.

[Liptonbrisk]

do NOT require you to have E911. It's optional.

The CRTC mandates that 911 access is provided for what they consider to be local (and nomadic) VoIP services, and a couple of their customer service reps or officers suggest reporting service providers, which happens to include one that's based in Quebec, that make 911 optional with Canadian numbers.

https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/phone/911/voip.htm
"The three major obligations for local VoIP service providers in Canada are as follows:

To provide either Basic or Enhanced 9-1-1 service to their customers (Telecom Decision CRTC 2005-21)."


https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/phone/911/can.htm

"VoIP service providers’ obligations

Fixed/non-native and nomadic local VoIP services

Implement an interim solution that provides a level of 9-1-1 service, in areas where 9-1-1/E9-1-1 service is available from the ILEC, that is functionally comparable to Basic 9-1-1 service (see paragraph 68 of Telecom Decision 2005-21).
The interim solution must connect an emergency call to an intermediary, which in turn transfers the call to the proper PSAP or emergency services agency (see paragraph 61 of Telecom Decision 2005-21). As well, this solution must ensure that a 9-1-1 call originating from a local VoIP service is not routed to a PSAP that does not serve the geographic location from which the call is placed (see paragraph 68 of Telecom Decision 2005-21).
Regarding the determination of the caller’s location using nomadic local VoIP service,
the primary means of identifying the location of a 9-1-1 caller is by verbally determining the caller’s location;
if a 9-1-1 call is disconnected before the operator can verbally determine a caller’s location, the operator must attempt to call back in order to determine the caller’s location; and
the registered service address should be used only when the 9-1-1 caller cannot communicate his or her location or when a 9-1-1 call is disconnected before the 9-1-1 caller’s location can be determined, and the operator cannot re-establish contact with the caller (see paragraph 10 of Telecom Circular 2008-2).
Implement the capability to provide VoIP service provider (VSP) operators with a 9-1-1 caller’s telephone number, and require VSP operators to use the provided telephone number as a last resort to re-establish contact with a 9-1-1 caller, when a 9-1-1 call is disconnected before the caller’s location has been determined (see paragraph 17 of Telecom Regulatory Policy 2011-426).
Use zero-dialed emergency call routing service as the interim solution to route fixed/non-native and nomadic VoIP 9-1-1 calls to the PSAPs, pending the development and implementation of a long-term fixed/non-native and nomadic VoIP E9-1-1 solution (see paragraph 60 of Telecom Decision 2007-44).
Contact customers each time billing address changes are made to confirm the most likely physical address for emergency purposes, and ensure that customers are able to update their most likely physical address online (see paragraph 45 of Telecom Decision 2010-387).
Provide initial customer notification regarding any limitations that may exist with respect to 9-1-1/E9-1-1 service before service commencement. This information is to be made available through all of the following: marketing material used for television, radio, and printed media, the terms and conditions of service, on-line material, customer service representatives, service contracts, and starter kits. In addition, provide on-going customer notification during service provision through all of the following: marketing material used for television, radio, and printed media, the terms and conditions of service, on-line material, customer service representatives, warning stickers affixed to telephone sets, and billing inserts (see paragraphs 93 and 94 of Telecom Decision 2005-21).
Submit to the Commission proposed texts for customer notifications, which must adhere to the requirements set out in Telecom Decision 2005-61 (see paragraph 15 of Telecom Decision 2005-61).
In cases where there are limitations on VoIP 9-1-1/E9-1-1 service, obtain, prior to commencement of service, the customer’s express consent, by which the customer acknowledges his/her understanding of the 9-1-1/E9-1-1 service limitations, using one of the methods approved in Telecom Decision 2005-15 (see paragraph 98 of Telecom Decision 2005-21).
Provide all customer notification and any printed information used to secure express customer consent in alternative formats (e.g. Braille and large print) upon request. Furthermore, explain all customer notification and printed information to customers upon request (see paragraph 98 of Telecom Decision 2005-21)."


It is odd that when I discuss with CRTC reps what "provides" means and whether 911 can be merely offered instead or made optional, they claim "no" (which brings into question what some other providers are doing). Whether those CRTC reps (if you chat with them, they're called "CRTC officers") know what they're talking about is another matter.

However, I note that Callcentric and Anveo (retail) both claim they're forced to make 911 mandatory if the customer claims to live in Canada.

"Do I need to have 911?
If you are located in the United States or Canada and have purchased a rate plan for outbound calling, or a phone number to receive calls we must provide you with 911 service as per FCC regulations in the US, and CRTC regulations in Canada."
https://www.callcentric.com/faq/23#162

"Can I opt out of E911?
You can not opt-out if you have indicated that you are residing in USA or Canada."
https://www.anveo.com/faq.asp?code=faq_e911#e911.optout


It's also obvious that Fongo didn't like Freephoneline customers making frivolous or test 911 calls because each 911 call to Northern 911 cost Fongo money: viewtopic.php?t=20529.

[Liptonbrisk]

Availability: 911 Emergency calling service is unavailable for use with Fongo Mobile, Fongo Works and FreePhoneLine services in the provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Prince Edward Island.

The Freephoneline desktop application is different than the VoIP unlock key. Fongo probably needs to update its terms page.

https://www.freephoneline.ca/911
"Availability

911 Emergency calling service is unavailable for use with FreePhoneLine Desktop services in the provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Prince Edward Island. Please consider upgrading to a VoIP Unlock Key."

Contact Fongo if you want to make sure: https://support.fongo.com/hc/requests/n ... urce=email.

[Liptonbrisk]

I think too many people are getting hung up on 911 specifically instead of Fongo trying to generate revenue for Freephoneline due to increased costs for providing the service. I could be mistaken, but I think 911 fees are just the avenue chosen for increased revenue.

Also, the sudden appearance of $0 monthly invoices may be coincidental, but, in retrospect, I now suspect everything was planned.

[bizard]

@RandyG

It actually STILL says 911 is free, as of right now.
https://www.freephoneline.ca/

That's brilliant. Thanks.

@Erft
They're gonna change it very soon.

[Liptonbrisk]

An elderly person I know with freephoneline does not have a credit card. Can the 1.95 montly fee be paid at a physical bank or through online banking?

I don't even know if a prepaid credit card works. If it does, then that might be an option.

I heard back and was told that prepaid credit cards "should work, as long as they can be drawn on, i.e. the card still has a balance", but there's no guarantee that they will work "due to different prepaid vendors". Beyond that, I don't know.

[Khyron]

Availability: 911 Emergency calling service is unavailable for use with Fongo Mobile, Fongo Works and FreePhoneLine services in the provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Prince Edward Island.

The Freephoneline desktop application is different than the VoIP unlock key. Fongo probably needs to update its terms page.

Had to refresh to see the change, my browsers cached version didn't didn't have that version.. The change to that page (both English and french) must have been done not that long ago.. All the other pages (faq/fongo etc..) still contradict what's that page says.

I sent them a ticket yesterday, When I get an answer I'll post it in case anyone else would like to know as well..